Would YOU throw soup at a Van Gogh painting?
In today’s episode, we discuss some recent examples of climate activism, how we feel about them, and what our climate activism barriers are.
Because there’s no one right way to tackle this climate crisis, but does that mean we can’t contribute a bit more to these organizations? Even if it’s just starting conversations? Are we getting too caught up in the acts themselves?
Grab some tea, get comfy, and hit that play button.
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#7 | To fly or not to fly?
Podcast | How to Save a Planet
Article | Understanding Non-Violent Direct Action (NVDA)
Article | Huge UK public support for direct action to protect environment – poll
Article | Just Stop Oil protesters removed from Dartford Crossing bridge and arrested
Article | Climate activists glue themselves to frames of two Goya paintings in Madrid
Article | Our Demands - Extinction Rebellion UK
Article | Egypt: Arrests, Curbs on Protests As COP27 Nears
Article | Protest Is Risky at Egypt's Climate Talks. That Won't Stop Activists
Article | How does the new Policing Act affect my protest rights?
Article | What Makes a Successful Protest?
Article | A psychologist explains the limits of human compassion
Organization | Greenpeace International
Venn Diagram | How you – specifically you – can help with climate solutions
Video | I would throw soup at a Van Gogh painting
Video | Soup thrown at Van Gogh Sunflowers painting
Video | Don't join the climate movement.
-Brandee and Hannah
Note: This transcript is mostly unedited.
It's not easy living on a dying planet. But it is easy to feel overwhelmed when it comes to making changes and taking action to try and save it. Where do you start? Is it even worth it? Can you really make a difference? Welcome to The Tea on Sustainable Living podcast, where we attempt to answer these questions by spilling the tea on living sustainably in a world that's going to shit. I'm Brandee.
And I'm Hannah. And for years, we've been navigating the big messy gray area of caring about our planet. It hasn't always been smooth sailing, but we're not giving up yet. So brew yourself a cup of tea, get comfy. And let's try and navigate that gray area together. Hello, Give-a-Shitters. This is Hannah.
And this is Brandee. And you're listening to episode number 18 of The Tea on Sustainable Living podcast. With each number. It's like, obviously, it's the first time we've done each episode with that number, but like it's getting bigger each time. So it feels like every time like oh, we're still doing this.
Yeah, it's quite a lot actually. At like a child has grown to read to read that in nine
hours of recording.
I'm sure yeah. Very convenient child. Yeah.
All right. So what are we talking about today?
So we're talking about activism and protests. So I'm, well, there's a couple of things going on right now. We've obviously as we're recording, cop 27 as on, which is the 27th Conference of the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. And so I think you'll just finish when this episode comes out, I think it's like a week,
10 days, or something like that.
So that's happening right now in Egypt, and I was reading about how there are less protests going on than on less activism that you would normally expect. Because the country has a more has a lower tolerance, shall we say for political protests? So that's one thing that kind of made me think about talking about this for this episode. And then there's also in the last month or so there's been quite a few protests that have made the news there's the throwing the soup at like Van Goff some flowers by just just stop
boil. Yeah, just just a
boil. In the UK, and then there's a door a couple of others, like in Madrid to protesters stuck their hands to go Yeah, as painting paintings. That was a couple of well, to the, to the nuts of the paintings to the frames. So that was a couple of weeks ago, and they were affiliated with extinction rebellion. I think.
Oil is an affiliate of extinction rebellion as well.
Yeah. And there's also protests going on in the UK right now. There were protests, which stopped some of the big motorways going into London caused lots of traffic jams. So yeah, there's quite a few that things have come up. And especially for example, the painting the soup on the painting has been quite controversial. I've heard kind of a lot of things for and against. And I wanted to talk about that today. I've never been involved in any kind of direct action protest. I don't know about you, Brandy.
Now the closest is when you and I just did the climate march right was a very well planned organized like walking down a closed Street.
Yeah, I've been to marches and yeah, that's about the extent of my engagement with protesting.
Yeah, my, my experience is very limited as well near non existent really. I'm just glad you wanted to talk about this episode because I had heard about the Van Gough soup incident and kinda like kept it on the periphery of my brain to like not to like think about what I thought about it.
I watched a video which I think ties in like all of these topics quite well on YouTube by Lena normes titled I went through a soup at a Vanguard painting and she started the video talking about why like her friends were like surprised that she had this opinion. But then she the way she breaks it down which we can talk about the various like points and and yeah, the aspects of activism. Going protest. But yeah, so having this conversation out helps me it's forcing me to kind of figure out how I feel about it. And just Yeah, disclaimer I'm I'm not well educated on on this in the history of protests in an activism, my preferred form of activism is having a podcast. So yeah, it gets Yeah, it's important. Important to talk about it because I think that's the ultimate goal is to like have a dialogue, there was like an article I think you just linked in the quote that stood out for me is protests should not be seen as synonymous with violence, but with dialogue. Among friends with between policy leaders, makers, yeah, etc. So,
yeah, and I think as well, a lot of the lot of times the different types of different types of activism and different types of protests kind of live alongside each other. Not always cohesively, but I think in general, you know, people who like, you know, people engage with these issues in a way that they feel comfortable with, and the way that they feel like called to act, and this is like the most, this is the most useful or best way that they can engage with an issue. I was just because I was just thinking, I feel like I've been involved with, for example, climate action groups that have been that have been doing actions. That would definitely, but that are that are not the one I'm trying to say here. Like the types of actions that obviously make things more complicated, but aren't leading to people being at risk of being arrested. So for example, like protest marches, going into banks, and like asking awkward questions to the people working in the banks, for example, to like, divest from, you know, why is this bank investing in this oil plant, for example, this, you know, that kind of thing. So, and through that, I've known people who would be engaged in more dramatic forms of action. But within those kinds of spaces, like there's the whole spectrum of what people feel comfortable with and what people feel, you know, that is the right thing for them to to do. I don't know that didn't really have much of a point. Just like, what was the point of that sentence? Yeah,
I feel like did you want to talk about, like, potentially wanting to like join like the local extinction rebellion? Did you go to a meeting?
Yeah, I did. I went to a meeting quite a long time ago. I think, like a year and a half. I mean, even longer. I think it was pretty, pretty cool. Well, pretty. COVID. I can't remember so but a while ago. I yeah, I went to the to a meeting like an introductory meeting with a friend. And then didn't take it any further. I think I would be interested in going to something again, it was something I was looking at recently.
What what do you think like, Utah only like going to the intro meeting?
Yeah, it's a good question, I think
makes you feel like uncomfortable, like, was it? Like maybe not for you? Or did it seem like a lot to take on? I think it was,
I think it was quite a lot. And I I think that I would need to get clearer about the specific aims. And what I was committing to. Yeah, what was it? That was good question, like, what was what felt like the barrier? I feel like it's like, a lot. There's like several different things going on with like, extinction rebellion, right? Because they're also so they're advocating or they're, they want zero. Net Zero by 2025. Oh, go 2020 2030 So anyway, that I will I'm like googling this right now. Because I do have some very clear aims, but basically, I was like, there's the words the stuff that's like the climate action and then they have a lot of things they have some like political restructuring, as well. So they advocate for people's forums as a way of like collective decision decision making. So engaging they want that every community to have people's forums, which I'm not super knowledgeable, I'll be will post their website so please like fact check this. But basically, that people come together in a form, you know, collectively to make decisions and they want every I don't know if like every city or every like place to have people's forums that then can, as far as I'm aware that then can go to like the government and that will have an influence on political structure. Take that with a pinch of salt, because I'm like, feel like I'm, while you're
looking up, potentially. Or you're doing you're Googling if you're listening, and this is the first time you're hearing of extinction, rebellion and just stop oil. Extinction rebellion is a global environmental movement with the stated aim of using nonviolent civil disobedience to compel government action to avoid tipping points in the climate system, biodiversity loss and the risk of social and ecological collapse. And just stop oil an extinction rebellion affiliate is an environmental activist group in the UK using civil resistance and direct action. The group aims for the British government to commit to halting new fossil fuel licensing and production. Because I think at the time they formed this, this affiliate group, there were, I think leaner norms has says in the video, like maybe 10, or 12, new projects, new licensing, for CrossFit licensing. And now I think there's like over 100 Yeah, so
I've just googled, I can tell you tell us that extinction rebellion, this is on the UK website, our demands, one tell the truth. All institutions must communicate the danger we're in, we must be clear about the extreme cascading risks, humanity now faces, the injustice, this represents its historic roots, and the urgent need for rapid political, social and economic change. And then the second request is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025. And begin protecting and repairing nature immediately. And then number three, is which was just talking about decide together. We demand a culture of participation, fairness and transparency, the government must create and be led by a citizens assembly. So a lot of people's forums are a citizen's assembly, on climate and ecological justice. Only the common sense of ordinary people will help us navigate the challenging decisions ahead.
I like that the collective decision making I didn't know that about them, but I haven't known much about this group, except for what I hear in the news. So I'd love to talk more about like this, like the the soup, the throwing the soup, and then come back to what's happening at COP 20. Yes, because both are very interesting. So the names of the two activists, Phoebe and Anna, which I found online from just oil, they threw cans of soup at a Angoff painting sunflowers. And this video, Billy norms breaks down like, I do recommend watching it, because if you just wanted to dive deeper into this specific incident, but my my main takeaway I'll start with is that agreement on like, how action is done is not as important as like the action, like taking action in general, the why and end goal, because a lot of her videos, she's talking about, like, if you have a better way to go about this, please do it like, like, it's like not getting caught up in, like, how effective is this? Is this protest is this sort of like knocking it, like, do something else if you feel like it's better. So
I think that's a really good point. And something I really liked about what she said as well. But then it was quite interesting, because I was then reading another article, which was talking about, and maybe this is more about a direct action, but he was talking about the need for coherency between the actions, like how to make a protest effective. And he was talking about you need to be very clear about what you want. And that it's important that there's like communication between different groups of people who are working towards the same goal. Because otherwise, like the actions of one group might, you know, and then and what they decide is the correct thing to do make them work against what another group is saying.
Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like I heard like they did state like why they were doing this specific. Oh, yeah. I hadn't thought about like communicating with other other groups. But
I definitely recommend while you're watching videos to watch the heart, the full video of this the incident where the soup is being thrown on the samba because I think the the words of the activists were very powerful. You know, if you move away from the action, you know, what they're saying is really important. And I think that didn't get reported reading very much what they said. It was just like, oh, young people have thrown soup at the Van Gogh painting. Oh, yeah, I don't mind
because something else she says in the video, and if you don't know why they why they throw soup and why this painting and watch the video and she goes into that. But basically, it's the wise, you can't use logic with people who aren't using logic. So then activist and activist groups, and I'm partially quoting the video have to do with the big shiny thing. Because doing the if they do the logical doll thing, like the thing that will actually save lives like that doesn't get reported throwing off painting is getting reported and people are talking about it. Is it in the most effective way? I don't know that that's up for debate. But like, here we are talking about it.
Yeah, and I think that's true. Something else I was like, write down I think you man, it's like, oftentimes, I think when people don't like these kinds of actions, they criticize the action themselves. For example, I was reading with the protest for the on the M 25. On the big motorway, and it was like, oh, locked up bridge, they blocked a bridge. And so people couldn't get past they were I think people were like hanging down from the bridge. And I remember I saw someone, you know, oh, well, they don't think that it takes me three hours to get to work. Think of all the gas and the pollution that's caused by me having to be sat in a traffic jam for three hours, like I got yet. And it's just like, that's so not the point, you know, the action that they're doing? It's not because they think the most sustainable thing for the world is to be hanging out on a bridge. No,
they're right. All right. protest. Yes, to cause disruption. And this was during Super the painting doesn't cause that. So that's a point that Lina makes it why it's not that big of a deal. And it disclaimer, the painting was well protected. I think they wiped it off, like paper towels or kitchen. Yeah. Immediately after. So like, no harm was done to this painting.
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I mean, but even in both situations, and whether there's like some harm or disruption or like no disruption, really, you know, to, to just think about the act like,
why are they doing the art? Yeah,
the action isn't the point. Like they're not like, yes, chucking soup on a painting is solving the world problems? Obviously, they don't think that it's getting
us to talk about and why they're doing it. Right.
Do you think you would throw soup on a Angoff painting?
I would be scared of getting arrested. Like I'm really scared of getting arrested. So I think that's I was asking you about your barrier, like not, not going back to extinction, rebellion meetings after the entire meeting. I think my barrier to like this kind of activism in general would be like getting arrested because I, which brings up like something that I learned, which I find interesting is that it's often the goal is to get arrested. Because if you get enough people arrested, I forget which article, but it probably linked. I read that if you there was something there was a specific act reference that I think their goal was to like get 3000 people arrested, because then that would overwhelm the Metropolitan Police in London. And then they can the police station can then bring the issue to Parliament. So it can't like getting arrested. Right and getting enough people arrested can drive policy change? Yeah, in that way.
Yeah, that's true. Now, you mentioned that I think that was I mean, definitely be a fear for me. And it was something that I felt more aware of going to a meeting, extinction rebellion meeting in Spain, because it felt like the consequences could potentially be worse. Not not because the Spanish police system is worse. That's not what I'm referring to. But just being like a, not a citizen of that country. I don't know if that's like a rational thing to be afraid of, like the impact that your arrest might have on visas and your location. So it's true. And now you mentioned like, oh, yeah, it was definitely something that made me more nervous. But I'm like, is that just kind of an excuse, because I don't particularly want to be arrested.
I mean, there's not one way we're gonna get out of this climate crisis and lots of things happening at the same time. And if this kind of activism isn't for you, then it's not for you. I think I'm, I'm just kind of starting to think about how I'm getting more comfortable just having conversations with people like, more strongly I'm like too scared to get into because I'm not knowledgeable, knowledgeable enough. Like, I feel like this podcast has become like my safe space, just meaning because like, we were friends before we started it, and I can express my ignorance on topics, but like in a conversation with people, I mean, they don't really know that well out like sidebar, restaurant, whatever. I'm like too nervous to bring up things like I don't know a lot about because I just don't know how it's gonna go. And then if someone asked me a question, I can't immediately google it, or just the fact that I have to Google it, like, feel like I get you Usually discredited because I don't know something off top my head. So,
um, I mean, I think for us with brandy, I think you're a very knowledgeable person. Thank you. And I think you've done more research than a lot of people have.
I get nervous, a bit like turning into a debate. Right. So I think figuring out how to have better conversations and keep it at like, as a conversation or like a healthy disagreement, and not like, letting Yeah, important conversations turned into like, a you're right, I'm wrong, because I fit anywhere.
Yeah, I was gonna say, I think actually, that's something that's worth bearing in mind in terms of what being part of organizations on whatever spectrum can kind of help with. And whether that's more like extinction, rebellion, direct action, or, say, Greenpeace, they have a lot of, there's a lot of resources out there, there's a lot of training that they offer to people. Yes, that was something Well, within these within these groups. And of course, it's also worth mentioning for even for example, for extinction rebellion, obviously, we think of them and we think of the kind of, you know, the more risky types of action. But it's true that for everything they need, they also need the people who are willing to update their social media to translate trends, exactly create that graphics, translate their resources bring to the people who are protesting, there are a lot of different kinds of roles that are available. And it's also true, the one time that I was more involved with like an actual, like an organization, rather than engaging with these issues as an individual. For example, I went to training camps. I like had access to, you know, people helping you, you know, talk like, how do you talk about these issues? How do you have conversations, and then they have training, everything from on that level to what do you do if you're in a protest? And you're going to get arrested? Like, how do you respond? What do you need to know? So I think an important thing of like, if you're engaging in these issues, like in a group is to really find out the ways in which that group are going to support you as an individual, if you're taking on that risk as an individual, if you're taking on a role in which, and they, you know, they'll split it up like okay, then this, these are like arrestable roles. And then these are, you know, you decide beforehand, like, Okay, I'm gonna like, be in the back. But when the police tell us to move on, I'm going to be one of the people who moves on. And then there'll be other people who say, No, I'm not going to move on, I'm gonna get arrested. And they'll give you training, like, what do you do in that situation? Like, what can you expect to happen? And then, like, there should also be like, financial support for like, paying your, like, paying your fine
mental health component as well. For sure. I want to bring the shot back to cop 27. But first, I thought, yeah, I thought so. There's another mean anonymous video that shouldn't be live. By the time this episode airs. I've joined just full disclosure, I've joined her Patreon. So I'm in her gumption club. She calls it so I had early access to this video. But she references the Venn diagram, which I think was first brought up in how to save the planet podcast episode, which is now Spotify exclusive, which I have thoughts on, but that's for another time. Of like, drawing three circles, one, what needs doing in terms of like climate crisis? What do you enjoy doing? And what are you good at? I think those are the three things and then wherever that overlaps, it's maybe like a fun episode B for us to like, fill out our Venn diagrams and then have like, a bonus episode or even a regular episode of us like talking through it.
Now that would be cool. Okay, let's do that.
Anything else to say on Sirius?
What do you think? This is something I was trying to do research, but it's quite hard to find data or at least I didn't find any about what is the impact of this kind of protests. So do they have a positive impact? Do they just frustrate people
do you think yes to both of these questions? I think because you're not you're not going to get everyone on the same side of anything. That's true. So see a part of preparing for this episode. I researched what what is nonviolent direct action it's basically just geared towards stopping slowing or like interfering with business as usual. And in the video, later arms video about she makes funny jokes about like, field trips, like students in school, having their like field trip ruined. at the museum because of this anyway, and then there's anywhere from that to yes, stopping like traffic by blocking a bridge. So, so yes, the goal is to disrupt people, you're gonna frustrate the people who feel disrupted. But then we're having these conversations. So I don't I, and like I said earlier, I don't have a ton of knowledge on this, on this topic, but he's, but then, like an end of her of the video, Lena says, like, basically in the end at work, because it was the second most read story on the BBC.
Yeah. So interesting.
I don't think it's a definitive like, it's I think it's I can we both like it. I think it it seems like it, it has an impact. But yes, it's also frustrating people. Yeah. Which they might argue these activists might argue. It's part of the point.
But yeah, I think and I like what you said earlier about not getting caught up in the act itself, but like the why behind it? So yeah, I guess it's a brings the question, how do we how do we shift kind of the conversations away from the disrupter? And to talk more about why they're doing it? Because I wonder, is there a disconnect there? Is that what's leading to the frustration from people?
I think potentially I was, that's a really interesting point, it's kind of relates to something I wanted to talk about a little bit, which was, how things are reported. And I really notice that often people that some like, in a lot of news reports, I've read not about the sunflowers because that will have less of an impersonal impact. But say things where traffic gets disrupted, there's often reported, like a personal tragedy of, you know, someone not getting to hospital on time to see a loved one. And that is, of course, a really, really shitty thing, like horrific thing for that person as an individual to go through. And I can completely understand why they would be really angry and against those protests in the face of like something, you know, something that wouldn't normally have happened. But at the same time, that kind of reporting on these issues, in that way, to kind of zoom in on like, a personal,
more of an impact ish,
you know, impact in that situation. And being like using that, you know, it's very emotive Of course, yeah.
When you hear soldiers dying in war, and you hear that story, and their whole life story versus the 1000 killed like that one. Yeah. And there's science behind this. Why that that sticks with you more than the 1000.
Exactly. And yeah, so I wonder if that way of reporting things doesn't help.
Because just just to play devil's advocate, so I'm not saying that's not an important thing that someone can't get to a hospital in time. But then, yeah, just to play devil's advocate, so that will, yeah, that will impact people emotionally more than, say, the hundreds and 1000s of people who might be impacted by these oil projects.
Yeah. It's really, this is a different, this is a different episode. But one of us the, I'm relating to that, and like the emotion versus logic around climate change, and how do we engage people, you know, one of the, the speeches at COP 27, was from the like, president of Barbados. And I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said something along the lines of like, I don't expect you to love my island and my people as much as I do. But, but logically, you need to think about all of the climate refugees that are going to that are going to be you know, like, who, what, we already have climate refugees, that number is going to grow? And do you really want to be impacted by that? Basically addressing kind of some of some of the other countries. And
that's a good way to like, relate it to the people he's speaking to.
Right. But it was hard hearing that because on the one hand, it makes me so sad, right? It makes me sad that the thing that might get people to act is no wanting to have to deal with climate change refugees. You know, that's kind of brutal. Yeah. And I can't imagine what that must have taken to do a speech like that. And and you know, Barbados, and a lot of the island nations are already being affected greatly by climate change, and the changing weather patterns and increased flooding and all of this. But then it's like But maybe that's like an approach that he needs to take or people will take, you know, what's going to cause these countries more pain, climate change, or climate refugees. Okay, we're going to talk about climate refugees.
I mean, if that's what moves the needle, I mean, that's like, you know what I said, my main takeaway from that video was it's less about the like, agreeing on the how, but more about or what did I? What did I say? Yeah, agreeing on the house is not as important as like, just taking action and action itself. Yeah, yeah. And what I found interesting about cop 27, which, yeah, they're trying to, which was a whole other topic on like, having all of these like world leaders, policy leaders flying to one place to talk about climate change, go snore episode on flying, I forget which number it was, but only show notes. Is that they're trying to make sure we stick to the Paris Agreement and get where we need to be. But the I was vaguely aware of. You mentioned the beginning the How did you phrase it less, like they're less kind or less accepting of like protest and activism? There are, there are some harsh penalties for people I was reading, I found this quote from he was just Wikipedia or not wired a Wired article link speaking out can be dangerous in Egypt, where human rights groups, consider the president. I'm gonna say his name wrong. So I'll skip that government to be an authoritative authoritarian regime that has presided over rampant human rights abuses, including mass arrests, the killing of protesters by security forces and the use of military trials against civilians. And in so this is a big important, global meaning is happening. You and members is happening in this country, and they rent I was reading the same article they ramped up they're, like security measures. They've recording taxi cabs, like audio and video passengers and drivers. They're stopping people taking their phones looking at their social media.
Yeah. And they've like they've
made a space for for protesters, like away from the actual like event center.
So which kind of seems like it defeats the purpose. Yeah. They, this President's administration has threatened protesters with fines and imprisonment. And yet protesters must register for permission just to hold a rally in this like cordoned off spot, like separate from the concert from the concert conference.
And now, tonight, we have President United States
overall, in our within our 10 minute warning, so maybe, to try to try to wrap it up here.
I guess, you know, I think just on that, really briefly, is that it's definitely not the environment that I would prefer this kind of talks to be had in, you know, I don't think that's great to deny protesters. But on the other hand, part of the reason this climate change is so complex is that we can't just work with people or countries that have policies or political regimes that that make it
possible to, to protest at all. Yeah, I don't think it's my thing, either, I think, starting having more conversations about things as they come up in the news, like, if someone mentioned throwing soup bit of Angoff painting or similar, similar protests or form of activism, to just have more of a conversation about it, like if they're putting it down, or that's not effective, that's whatever the reason, just exploring that a bit more, because, you know, the more we can talk about things, the more we can hopefully
get somewhere. Yeah. And, you know, and like we've been talking about through this episode, just that kind of having like, yeah, you you put it here and the sooner you can vote for solutions, and be part of these groups movements is not either all often these things go hand by hand in hand. And you can also be part of groups and not be in an arrestable role, right? For example, because yeah, ideally you want to do
ideally, you know, we could vote for what we want and then it would happen but that's not always the case. So that's why these these activist groups exist. And yeah, either or, like what you you made a note about having an abundance mindset and just exploring how how you can help how you can contribute more if it's not, you don't need to join extinction rebellion or just stop oil, but maybe he's follow them on social media, do some research about them and then, have more conversations share this episode, and Um, because I think this is a good like I feel like I'm in a very like entry level kind of position in terms of like activism and you know just exploring what I'm, you know how I might be able to help. Maybe get this episode to start having this chat with you and preparing for this episode. As always conditioner we leave all links and resources in the show notes, which you can find at theteaonsustainable living.com/episode 18?
Yeah, Episode 18.
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